Agency Panel Discussion with Zeno Group,Propellant Media, &Boathouse


 
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Ann Kraus:
Hi everybody and welcome to the Simpli.fi webinars series. I’m Ann Kraus, a senior manager for training here at Simpli.fi and I’m going to be your host for this month, we have an agency panel discussion to talk about everything programmatic. So with me I have Justin Croxton managing partner at Propellant Media, I have Jorge Cordova vice president of Paid Media from the Zeno Group and Michele Madaris group account director at Boathouse, hi everybody. And I just wanted to kind of go around quickly and you guys if you could just say physically where you are in this world, in our virtual world, and what type of clients your agency usually works with, could we start with you Michele?

Michele Madaris:
Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for having us. As I mentioned, Michele Madaris at Boathouse, we’re located in Waltham, we’re a mid-size agency, we service healthcare financial services, higher education, and retail clients.

Ann Kraus:
Okay. Jorge.

Jorge Cordova:
Yeah. I am Jorge Cordova at Zeno Group, I’m in Chicago. And most of our clients we kind of span multiple industries so we don’t specialize in anything in particular. But we are an integrated communications agency born from PR so a lot of people will call us a public relations agency, some people call us a digital marketing agency and some people call us a creative agency. So what we try to do is to find those labels because we are all that and more so what matters to us is getting that right content in the right channel at the right time.

Ann Kraus:
So just like many agencies and companies were all wearing a bunch of hats, right?

Jorge Cordova:
All of the hats, yeah.

Ann Kraus:
Okay, great. Thank you. And Justin.

Justin Croxton:
Yes. And so Justin Croxton, I’m a CEO and managing partner wherever I need to be in the moment here at the agency at Propellant Media. We have offices both in Charlotte and also Atlanta, Georgia and we actually lead with programmatic display so everything from OTT to geo-fencing to the gambit is really what we focus on. But we still utilize a lot of the other digital channels to help support more sort of that omni-channel and advertising impact with the programmatic that we do for a number of clients. I mean, so many different industries from retail to restaurant, food and beverage to real estate, to healthcare, home care services, there’s just so many that we do and so there’s not really one. It keeps the work interesting, I’ll say it that way.

Ann Kraus:
That’s right. Keeps those creative juices flowing, doesn’t it?

Justin Croxton:
Definitely.

Ann Kraus:
Okay. All right. Great. Well, why don’t we get started with a couple of questions that I had here just to kind of guide our conversation if that’s okay. So I guess the first one is really, what do you think agencies should be looking for in a programmatic partner? What are some of those attributes? And could we start with you Jorge?

Jorge Cordova:
Yeah. I think your question kind of is a big part of the answer when you’re like, how do agency want to partner? And it really is. When we look at partners or vendors what we try to do is see what would be a good fit for us as far as match types with my team and let’s say in this case, the simplified team which has always been great, and also with our client, do they understand what we’re trying to get done? Is my team saying the right things to them to kind of get the right path to what we’re trying to get done for our client?

Jorge Cordova:
But, like I said, it’s a partnership for us and it’s an extension of our team and for us it’s very important that we are lockstep from the get go from the RFP or from a campaign brief all the way out through execution and reporting so I think the biggest part again is that partnership and growth. We both want to have growth in this campaign or with this client or with this objective and I think if we’re all thinking the same thing, it kind of works a lot better.

Ann Kraus:
Okay. Great. Justin, do you have anything? What do you think an agency should be looking for with a programmatic partner?

Justin Croxton:
I do. There are times when you won’t immediately have access to the backend of a platform but I think when you can see the back-end of a platform I think that can be useful just to kind of get a sense of the inner workings of building out campaigns and all that jazz. But not to get too technical, one of the biggest things that we look at is the individuals that’s working on the other side of the fence and we ask incredibly technical questions around, what’s the size of the geo-fence that you can build? Do you have first party data? How does that differ from third party data? What are those CPMs looking like?

Justin Croxton:
I mean, we have sort of a list of questions that we sort of measure many of our other programmatic partners against so we have a better feel for what’s going to be the right fit for the clients that we work with. And so those are some of the more pertinent things that we’re looking at and I’m sure the rest of the panel will have some other ones but those are the ones that we’re constantly asking those questions on specifically.

Ann Kraus:
Okay, great. Thank you. And Michele.

Michele Madaris:
Yeah. I mean, I definitely agree with what Jorge and Justin have said so far. At Boathouse I think we pride ourselves in having clients with complex business problems and I think, to Jorge’s first point about partner, right? We need someone who is a new partner with us and who wants to understand the client’s business just as well as we do. And I think partners that are willing to roll up their sleeves and spend the time to understand our businesses and what our challenges are and how we can help solve our client’s problems, those are the partners that we gravitate towards. As soon as we start treating someone like a vendor, I think that’s where the relationship really falls apart and the great work that we do falls apart.

Michele Madaris:
To Justin’s point tactically, I think the other piece is about people-based data and targeting, those are what’s hot right now, right? And that’s really what we need to understand fully because to try to find your audience it’s difficult right now. So I think trying to understand everyone’s data sources and, like Justin said, the first versus third party is really critical in understanding what the tools are and the partner’s toolbox to help us solve our problems, that’s high-level some of the things that we look at with our partners.

Ann Kraus:
Okay. Great.

Justin Croxton:
Let me throw one other thing in there too. I think that the other thing that’s important to look at is when you’re having a conversation with a programmatic partner, you have to ask them, are they going to be the ones sort of managing your campaign or building your campaigns or providing you the strategy or is the expectation that you are going to do it yourself? And I bring that up specifically because a lot of people think that they can just go direct to some of these platforms, they can start launching their own campaigns.

Justin Croxton:
And you think about the three folks on the panel right now with all the other agencies or marketing firms that utilize programmatic partners, it takes time, it takes time to get the strategy, to get the execution across multiple industries. So a lot of folks say, oh, I’m going to go ahead, I just want to use my own platform I’m going to build the campaigns myself I got a $1,000 campaign I want to spend, no, it doesn’t work that way. And so I say that to everyone because you do have to differentiate between a platform that self-service versus a platform or a team that can execute campaigns on your behalf, it’s very, very important.

Jorge Cordova:
Yeah.

Ann Kraus:
Exactly.

Jorge Cordova:
Oh, sorry. And having access to that person that’s actually making the changes in the platform. Well typically what I’ve seen in the past five, well, about 10 years has been, here’s my team, here is who I’m talking to and then two steps behind there are the people that are actually hands on keyboard. Whereas now a very important part is having that one-to-one conversation or at least the access to that person to say, why did you do that? Or, can you walk me through that? So I can flip that back to my client and say, hey, this is exactly what they were thinking, this is why they did it, these are the expected results and this is what happened. So having access to that team or that person or whoever it is, is huge for us as well.

Ann Kraus:
That’s great.

Michele Madaris:
I think just one other-

Ann Kraus:
Yeah, go ahead.

Michele Madaris:
… Yeah, one other thing, the transparency part, right? Is super important and think to have that one-to-one relationship is huge because they are an extension of your team, right? So you want to feel comfortable knowing that you have the best of the best working on your business with you because it’s your name, your reputation on the line too. So.

Jorge Cordova:
Right.

Ann Kraus:
So do you guys each have a favorite maybe a campaign or something perhaps a client that was not sure about programmatic or somebody who had a really good turnaround, a good story, that you would be able to share on this webinar? Michele, can we start with you?

Michele Madaris:
Yeah, sure. This one I was really trying to think hard about it. I think one of the most recent ones that we’ve had it’s about driving store traffic and really trying to understand. This was the first time a campaign has been set up for this particular retail client with the objective of driving store traffic and there were a lot of preconceived notions about how we should be doing that and I think where we started and where we ended were two entirely different things and we’ve been able to see success over time and really bringing down the cost per conversion, cost per visit, pretty significantly.

Michele Madaris:
But again, it was that partnership that we had together to really help us, it was really a collaboration between the partner, the agency and the client all coming together to look at the data, to peel back the layers of the onion, to figure out which layer of the program was working the best, was it the addressable audience, was it the geo-fencing, was it the competitive conquesting that we did, what part of the program was really working for us, and it was an evolution of time. This also wasn’t done overnight, it was a multi month campaign that I think we’ve really honed in on what the drivers of success were and have really been able to focus on that and continue to drive in-store conversions which was the first for this particular client and it worked out well. So I think it’s all about iterating and learning and pushing that forward.

Ann Kraus:
Again, that education of everything kind of coming together. Yeah. Okay, great. Justin.

Justin Croxton:
Yeah. There’s so many good stories to share but what I’ll try to do is I’ll actually talk a little bit and I won’t call it so much a failure but rather sort of a lesson learned from this experience and it’s really kind of what we’ve seen in legal space. A lot of times we’ll get a personal injury law firm is a great example, personal injury law firm they’ll say, hey, we want to geo-fence specifically ERs, let’s say, and a lot of times we’ll tell them, we actually do not believe that’s a good idea. And they say, why is that? These other firms are geo-fencing ERs and they’re having some success maybe are not so sure. And then we’ll say, well, the reason is because think about how many people are at that individual ER location who possibly has not gotten into a car accident.

Justin Croxton:
And so you’re experiencing at least 95 to 97, maybe even 99% of waste in targeting people who may not be in market, of course, it could certainly be a perennial exercise, you can let people know about your law practice but those may not be people who are in marketing and if I know you as a law practice or a partner, you really want to relegate your traffic to those people who are most likely to be in market for your products or for your services effectively. And so we’ll then say, oh, well, you should instead consider geo-fencing, let’s say, a towing location or a car repair location or those types of things. And the reason why I bring up that story is because understanding of the customer journey as well as the client’s marketing objectives is absolutely vital across every single industry that you’re in.

Justin Croxton:

And we’ve seen cases where your law firms they say, oh, I thought this was going to have great success and I’m not happy, I’ll say, well, we told you we didn’t think this was going to be the right approach. And some people do really care about the brand exercise and there’s others, people that just care about leads and that’s all, if you care about leads and that’s not the strategy. But the bigger lesson is just think about the customer journey and think about what’s the best way that you can get that customer in and not wasting your ad budget on people that are probably not going to be in market. If you look at it from that perspective, you’re going to win more times than lose, I’ll put it that way.

Ann Kraus:

So you don’t want to get all the appendectomies, you want to get the actual crush victims. Yeah.

Justin Croxton:
Yeah. I want to get in front of the appendectomies, I want to get from the individuals who are most likely going to need my services.

Ann Kraus:
Right, if I’m a doctor, yeah. Okay, great.

Justin Croxton:
Well, if I’m a doctor, yes. Sorry.

Ann Kraus:
Jorge, do you have a story for us?

Jorge Cordova:
I do. It’s one that I carry with me through any kind of teams I’m on and even a couple of conferences that I’ve had the opportunity to speak at. And it was about five years ago, we were working with a larger fitness brand and the CFO got, and it’s a short story, CFO got involved and said, “Why are we spending so much money on programmatic display if all the money is coming in from search and social, and this is where the leads are coming in,” and he said, “Turn it off.” And we were like, “We highly recommend not doing that because we’re going to see a dip and this is what we’re doing.” We had geo-fence campaigns, we had conquesting campaigns, we had remarketing, we had prospect, we did the whole debut and so he saw it as a waste and we said, okay, and so we had to turn it off.

Jorge Cordova:
And for this we were at a very aggressive cost per lead campaign and we needed about a 100 leads a day and so we turned it off and said, okay, we’re going to turn it off, we’re going to let it go for a little bit. So that was again, high funnel, all the prospecting pieces, all of the remarketing was off and we saw leads dip within I believe it was four to five days of 31% immediately and we were like, hey, it’s proving out not the right way that we want to do it, cost per leads were going higher, we were pushing all the search and social as much as we can but we weren’t feeding it, right?

Jorge Cordova:
We weren’t feeding and we weren’t continuing that conversation with a prospect that doesn’t know about the brand and they saw us a week ago and now we’re remarketing to them and we’re hitting them up on social, but if you take away the top part of the funnel, we have to pay a lot more for it, so we saw a big decrease. It took us a couple of weeks to get back to where our normal cost per lead plus lead volume was, took about 30 something days because we literally shut off the faucet and just kept churning through this group. So it’s one of those exercises that I always talk about, I bring out with me every single time I talk about programmatic and how important it is to that conversation.

Jorge Cordova:
And Justin you said it’s like that user journey, all that we’re doing is kind of supporting that user journey and just nudging people along because there’s so much noise out there that right after this call I’m probably going to have to jump to another meeting and now my mindset’s changed and I forget about it. I need that reminder to bring me back to whatever I was thinking about before and that’s where that programmatic piece, number one, it’s supports feeding the funnel, number one, but then also kind of pushing them through. So that was one of those things where I tell prospective clients, current clients, the people that are not thinking about programmatic, I’m like, hey, how are you going to think about something and then go buy it without kind of looking at it or reading about it.

Justin Croxton:
Yeah. Just to chime in just one more time on what Jorge was saying, I mean, that was literally the perfect story. I mean, we get so many individuals that just all they care about is search and paid social, and I’m like, I mean yeah, that’s great, I mean, but you got to think about how you’re feeding the beast a little bit. We’re not suggesting that you put 80% of your budget towards programmatic and then 20% support search and paid social but it’s certainly a 20, 80, 30, 70, 10, 90, whatever you feel comfortable, split where you have to. Like you said, hit those people who may not be thinking about you in that moment even if they did a search and they clicked on your ad at one point and you have omni-channel site retargeting in play, that stuff matters. A lot of people all they care about is that, I just need that lead and where the last quick attribution is, all that, and I’m like, guys, it’s just a bigger story, you have to look at programmatic and helping feed that funnel because it really does make a difference.

Jorge Cordova:
Yeah.

Ann Kraus:
Absolutely.

Jorge Cordova:
And sorry. The one thing I always add onto them, I tell people all the time, hey, right now currently on my browser I probably have three carts online that have things in there that all I need is an email or all I need is a banner like, oh yeah, I didn’t get those shoes, let me go back and order those. And everyone is like, yeah, that happened to me, this is where that continuing that conversation comes in and it just starts clicking a little bit so it’s always interesting.

Justin Croxton:
Sure.

Ann Kraus:
Interesting. Yes, absolutely. And it’s certainly nothing that we haven’t heard before where you turn it off and everything just kind of slowly just kind of crashes down and then you got to get it back and up and going again. So keeping that in mind and keeping everything that’s going on in the world and the future of programmatic and everything, what strategies out there right now excites you the most for your clients? Michele, can we start with you?

Michele Madaris:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think the adage of making sure that we’re reaching the right audience at the right time with the right message is still relevant in this day, I mean, probably even more so given the fragmentation of the way that consumers are taking in all of these different messages, right? We’re getting bombarded constantly with a variety of different messages. I think an omnichannel strategy is super important and making sure that you’re identifying your audience, making sure that you’re intercepting your audience across a variety of different formats because, the whole point here, you just never know how it’s going to resonate, right? And making sure that you’re constantly learning and iterating. So I think we can never rest on our laurels, we always have to be looking for what’s the future and how can we make sure that we’re delivering for our clients and using programmatic to the best of its ability and I think it’s constantly going to evolve.

Michele Madaris:
The targeting and the sophistication within data I think is going to continue to increase even in the cookieless world we’re about to go into, I think there’s still something there and we have to figure out how we can prepare for it and make sure that we’re on top of it. So, I mean, I think that’s really what excites me the most about the future, really is about the future and what the opportunities will be and how we can get smarter across a variety of different targeting strategies and technology that will come forth.

Ann Kraus:
So not one particular strategy but just that whole omni-channel approach.

Michele Madaris:
Yeah. It’s not as clear, I know it’s not as apparent to sing dance or to your question but I just think it’s so complicated, right? And I don’t think there is a one size fits all necessarily, I think we have to keep pushing to figure out because all of our client’s businesses are very different and I think we just have to make sure that we’re adopting our strategies to the clients that we have to make sure that we are delivering success.

Ann Kraus:
Okay. Great. How about you Jorge? Is there any particular strategy that excites you and for your clients?

Jorge Cordova:
I mean, yeah. And kind of what Michele said, the second that we settled down and put our stake in the ground and say, this is how it works and this is how it’s always going to be, is when everyone blows past us. For me it’s context, how are we reaching people in the right mindset at the right time when they’re flashing intent? May it be purchase intent or they want to learn something more, how do we get that person at that right time again with that right message in the right context because that’s kind of going to be where we’re going to have to move to once we start losing cookies and we have inability to track people across different platforms or different channels, whichever it would be.

Jorge Cordova:
Just being there and being ready for that intense signal to say, all right, this person has done this search or they’re reading this article, how can I put my ad there in a very relevant non-invasive mindful way? And that’s kind of what gets me excited is how do I find more of those opportunities across that user journey regardless of channel or tactic. So staying sharp with, number one, consumer behavior, what are people doing? How are they doing it? And then just essentially just trying to reproduce that over and over and over with new prospects and people that are new to the brand or whatever it would be.

Ann Kraus:
Yeah. That’s funny that you say, as soon as you put your stake in the ground, as soon as you’re standing still, something happens, right?

Jorge Cordova:
Everyone else is sprinting. Yeah.

Ann Kraus:
Right, you can’t rest. Yeah. Justin, do you have anything else to add on that one?

Michele Madaris:
Yeah, I do. I definitely agree that the omni-channel approach is still going to be vital as we’re sort of making a transition to this cookieless world and we will all get through it together, I promise you, we all will. But I think there’s a couple strategies, just say if I were to give a specific strategy that I appreciate as of late has been CRM retargeting specifically, I know that a simplifying number of the platforms that we tap into has relationships with live ramps for the world, you all have first party data. But CRM has really been good for us because a lot of times for many of our B2B clients they may have a list of prospects that they have in their database or they may have a list that they’ve scrubbed that they feel really, really good about.

Michele Madaris:
And we’ve actually run a number of real estate based campaigns from, how do I say it? From a recruitment perspective. And typically as you all know the average TTR is going to be 0.1, 0.2, let’s call it, but for our CRM retargeting campaigns, I mean, for some of those, we’ve been averaging close to one to 3% which is pretty extraordinary in the programmatic space. And so sort of dovetailing into how are we leveraging more first party data knowing that we’ll be transitioning into more of a cookieless world having that first party data and leveraging that specific tactic, I think is going to be incredibly vital.

Michele Madaris:
And still my other favorite is, it’s kind of a boring one but I still love site retargeting depending on how long it will be around. But you think about all the different tactics that we all do programmatically, whether it’s geo-fencing, that’s still probably my favorite, and also addressable geo-fencing, but specifically site retargeting is probably one of the best splitting the doors that you can not so much sell but educate the client on the impact that I can have. All the offline and online media that someone’s running, anytime that you can implement an omni-channel site retargeting strategy, the better, that’s sort of the way that I look at it.

Ann Kraus:
It’s the classic, the classic of all digital advertising, right? Okay. So final question for you guys. What do you think the future holds for connected television and how do you guys prepare your clients? How do you guys prepare as agencies and how do you prepare your clients for what’s going on in the connected television arena? Let’s start with you Jorge.

Jorge Cordova:
Yeah. When we think about CTV, right? In the past handful of years huge numbers of cord cutters, where are they going? They’re going to devices and they’re going to streaming. The one thing that I always kind of ground myself in is I can’t just repurpose a video that I have on social and throw it into CTV, we have to have a different type of ad, a different type of creative. So what I do, I go back to my creative team or our client’s creative team and say, hey, this is an opportunity to have essentially a one-to-one conversation because we know that person’s going to watch this and we don’t have a lot of time.

Jorge Cordova:
And so that’s the first part, the second part is, let’s be smart with our targeting. We have a wonderful opportunity to not bombard CTV as an industry or as a group or in digital so if we can be mindful as to how we’re using CTV and not more of that spammy kind of generic commercials and whatnot, I think that’s where I see the future of CTV as kind of a very more personalized type of a conversation especially if you’re taking information from a CRM campaign and doing a retargeting or a remarketing campaign, how do we use that to continue our conversation as opposed to saying a different message just because it’s a different tactic or something.

Jorge Cordova:
So yeah, I’m excited about it, that’s the one thing I’m pushing. Table stakes right now, or remarketing and some prospecting campaigns, we have to be doing these and then the easy plus up is, hey, let’s try CTV, this is what we’re doing, this is what it means, this is how it works. You probably engage with it numerous times throughout the week and don’t really understand that, hey, these commercials are really good and really targeted, yes, that’s what we can do for you as well. So yeah, that’s how I think about CTV, I love it and whichever one do it.

Ann Kraus:
Michele, what do you think the future holds for connected TV and how are you as an agency preparing your clients for it?

Michele Madaris:
Yeah. We’re actually using CTV a lot for our clients right now, I think we’re using it currently in a variety of different capacities, in some ways it’s an extension of our television campaigns in other ways it’s replacement of television, I mean, obviously the addressable nature of it is huge, right? I think the biggest challenge is understanding the landscape, it is very complex, it is very fragmented, everyone has got something. There’s obviously the site direct premium partners or there’s the programmatic partners and just really trying to understand the entire landscape, the benefit of each inventory sources, the CPM, the targeting capabilities, the measurement of it, it’s all very complicated. So we’re currently doing an exercise right now just completely researching, research, research, research, and creating scorecards basically to rank all the providers out there to figure out who is the best, what do they have and how can we leverage each of them for our clients.

Michele Madaris:
I mean, I definitely see a role, I don’t think it’s going away obviously, I think television isn’t going away necessarily either so I think it’s about how we can, right? Maximize the connected TV space and use it to the best of our ability to really make sure that we’re honing in on that addressable audience and delivering, like Jorge said, delivering unique messages and using it the best way that we possibly can, right? Because it shouldn’t be just your television spot or your social spot living in that platform, I think you have to make sure that it is relevant to that end user.

Ann Kraus:
Okay. That’s great. And how about you Justin? Do you have any CTV stories?

Justin Croxton:
Yeah. Just a rhetorical question, are we able to serve as to people based on their age on traditional TV and linear TV ads? Is that a capability?

Jorge Cordova:
Maybe 2025, yeah.
Ann Kraus:
It’s a range.

Justin Croxton:
Yeah. I just kind of wondered, wanted to double check on that one detail. So for starters, if we all look at the trend of how many cord cutters are out there. I even think about our own family, we moved into our new home in 2019. We were sort of wrestling with whether to keep Xfinity or not and said, no, we’re paying all this money, we’re not going to keep it, we’re going to switch over to YouTube TV, now we have Philo, Amazon fire stick and you just think about all of those people that are making that transition. Part of what we’re telling many of our clients is you need to really get on the bandwagon and you don’t necessarily have to spend 50,000 or $25,000 on video creative. I even think about the lovely David McBee and his voice on those OTT spots that I get to see every other day on Philo with the graphics, yeah, thank you, I always like that show.

Justin Croxton:
But I see that kind of a video and it does what it’s supposed to do, it’s elegant, it’s simple, it works, client doesn’t have to come and spending a gazillion dollars just to get something out there and to Jorge’s point, you can still have a very direct conversation with that individual. And so part of what we’re telling folks is, you need to get on the bandwagon, you need to have that video creative and, no, don’t use the same video that you use for YouTube, have something that’s a little more elegant, something that’s a little bit more polished, even if it has a sort of that digital element coupled with that voiceover in the background. I mean, what I was alluding to earlier with traditional TV, it’s very challenging to get in front of your audience and spokespeople say the CPMs are low, I don’t know if I buy that, in comparison to OTT and connected TV advertising, with that at least I can couple the audience with the message and the targeting.

Justin Croxton:
And a lot of these other plays that you can buy, if I get the audience wrong then all this other stuff doesn’t matter as much. I got to at least get part of this right, that’s the part that matters more than anything else. And so if at least if I get that right in this case with the audience targeting that you can do within programmatic and if I can couple that with OTT CTV advertising, plus I can measure for traffic.

Jorge Cordova:
Right, I was going to say, yeah, contribution. Yeah.

Michele Madaris:
Yeah. The measurement does it, right? The measurement is the cherry on top.

Jorge Cordova:
It’s huge, yeah.

Justin Croxton:
Man, I could setup all day long. So those are the kind of conversations we try to have with clients, some of our clients are larger, some are smaller, some smaller is like, yeah, I’m not so sure, another one is like, yes, let’s do it. So it really does range but we really do try to just give good digital counsel on what to expect when it comes to that particular landscape and just helping clients sort of maximize their ad spend from that standpoint, that’s it.

Ann Kraus:
Well, this has been a great conversation you guys and actually, this has been a lot of fun to have this virtual meeting with you guys, I hope to meet you sometime in-person. And I want to thank you all for your time and I just want to remind you all that this recording will be in Bullseye. If you have any account specific questions you should reach out to your account manager and if you have any training questions please email training@simpli.fi. Have a great day everybody.

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